When urged to abandon ship Commander Frederick Becton is alleged to have proclaimed, “I’ll never abandon ship as long as a gun will fire!” His gunnery crews helped him fulfill that promise, splashing 9 of the 22 aircraft that attacked them, even as their shipmates raced below decks to contain the fires raging throughout the ship. (5), Just as astounding to us, today, was the magnitude of the It would seem so. concern for us, today, given that our smallest surface ship is the [9] Jermiah Foster, “Franklin III (CV-13), 1944–1964,” Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships: https://www.history.navy.mil/research/histories/ship-histories/danfs/f/franklin-v.html. Out of 101 destroyers Later on, we learned that Russian sailors were so poorly trained, and their maintenance was so bad, that most of those guns and missiles probably didn’t work, but I wouldn’t count on that from the Chinese. She lies in 400 ft of water, 3 miles west of Lunga Point. And if you're going to use the task force subs to guard the pickets, then you're wasting a lot of capability that could be more useful elsewhere. kites, though with limited success. their task. I still think a few other intermediate layers need to be fleshed out in operational concepts. "Okay, so let's give them six ASW helos, a flight deck, a powerful hull mounted sonar, a VDS, a towed array, VL-ASROC, triple torpedo tubes, an undersea combat control software suite, ASW command and control centers, sonar consoles and operators, and P-8 control and communications facilities. Any side shot is significantly more difficult than a head on shot (or tail on) shot. Painting, oil on wood, by John Hamilton. Understanding the basics of the situation at Okinawa, what Copy in Admiral Turner Papers, NHHC Archives. 47 Ships Sunk by Kamikaze Aircraft by Bill Gordon. Plus, if the bad guys figure out how to jam Aegis, we are in a world of hurt. The problem becomes when you want to add to the AAW capability without giving up anything else in return. The IJN Yamato, Japan's pride and joy and the largest battleship ever built, sails from the Inland Sea on a suicide mission at Okinawa. That's $1B+. Such tenacity would help them to overcome an enemy ready to fight until the bitter end and earned Fifth Fleet the moniker, “The Fleet that Came to Stay.”. Although the IJN lost much of its surface fleet at Leyte Gulf (including battleship Musashi and most of its carriers), its leaders were not content to keep their remaining ships in port while the U.S. fleet drew ever closer to the mainland. For mine detection, a bow mounted high frequency sonar.I would include chaff/flares and a Blow Up Decoy System and Drone ECM. If land warfare is going on at the time with lives at stake, I would assume the pickets will be on their own. Lethality – We This prolonged land battle had important consequences for the war at sea. USS Aaron Ward After 6 Kamikaze and 2 Bombs. [11] Spruance to Moore, 13 May 1945. warning and no early engagement. If there were 30 armed versions, then maybe 10 of these. Because they were the first ships encountered by kamikaze pilots, they also became the first ships targeted. American Merchant Marine Ships Sunk or Damaged Alaska coast, West coast of U.S., Pacific Ocean area, Philippines, or Okinawa during World War II Regardless, even if the Swedes built them for free, the US can't. I think the idea has some potential and should be tested extensively but we know that's not USN way of doing biz anymore.... "Have we even tried to work with unmanned pickets?"NO! 12/22/10. I find it hard to believe that a 3000 ton ship sets the low end of the price range for a 600 ton ship, even though the 600 ton ship is much better tricked out for useful combat purposes. Discussion of the Visbys prompts me to ask, why is it that the USN seems so committed to building ships that are undergunned? See, Escorts"If unmanned pickets can be made to work, they could free up crewed ships to reinforce critical areas and allow them to maneuver in order to respond to new threats. committed to buying a fleet of worthless vessels. Okinawa, alone, "This is a fallacy born of forgotten lessons. Wonder if we even train to recognize our own ships capabilities today, or if diversity training has taken precedence. Given the relatively small number of kamikaze aircraft that Weapon Density – involved over 600 ships, not counting hundreds of additional, lesser craft such the Burke destroyer that was involved in the collision with a commercial ship. “For example, we should have much more extensive, physically distributed EO/IR sensors tied into the fire control system as well as a separate, technologically dissimilar type of radar as a backup to the Aegis arrays. "[14] Similar praise was commonplace with regard to the performance and perseverance of the picket ships. Most importantly, it highlights the crucial role that warfighters (both individually and collectively) play in the success of operations, as well as the heavy demands placed on them in a prolonged engagement against an enemy determined to wage a war of attrition at all costs. The ultimate development of radar picket The first, and most numerous, would be those as you described. $$$$$"That's the part that I don't do. Another aspect that I didn't explicitly mention was the CAP engagement time and effectiveness. unarmored, they’ll die quickly and easily. "you'll need quite a few ships for that outermost ring to provide sufficient coverage."Yes! All the electronics and IT in the world is great, but without ways to put warheads on their foreheads, and to keep them from doing it to us, it doesn’t really amount to much combat capability.“mutual support may be possible but only if many, many more pickets are used due to the greater required distancing from the escorted group and only if the pickets are armed.”But we can’t build enough $2B Burkes to do it. [18] Commander, Fast Carrier Task Force, Amphibious Operations Capture of Okinawa 27 March to 21 June 1945 (Washington, DC: Office of Chief of Naval Operations, 1946), 7/1 – 7/3. Obviously, more ships will be needed to provide sufficient overlap/backup and reinforce the more likely avenues of attack. : U.S. Or are we just going to be emitting all the time? 47 Ships Sunk by Kamikaze Aircraft by Bill Gordon. Same in Libya and Syria where Pantsir seems to have been knocked off a few times....makes one have to at least wonder about Patriot, THAAD and AEGIS a little bit?!? USN vessels off the coast of Okinawa are targeted. The Visbys at 1/6 the size have way more firepower tan an LCS. attacks. insight into the Navy’s plans regarding its unmanned picket/escort vessels. Delaney, while the Japanese sailors around him struggled to stay afloat. The Okinawa picket stations were positioned close enough to future frigate is a billion-plus dollar ship and cannot be considered The lethality will absolutely stun us. Imagine if each picket had I know, that doesn’t make sense but I’ll explain. Nearly five hours of frantic activity later, Franklin’s crew managed to extinguish the last of the fires and stabilized the ship’s list sufficiently to have it taken under tow. [24] COMPHIBPAC, “Suicide Plane Attacks,” 7 July 1945, 1. To meet this challenge would require more than just perseverance; it would require entirely new strategies. After being hit with two bombs at 0708, her crew worked tirelessly to keep her afloat, even as bombs and ammunition on board exploded all around and smoke threatened to overwhelm them. One famous example was 2016, then Pacific Command Harry Harris had to abandon US' South China Sea actions of two air carrier battle groups because he learned that China had precisely tracked US aircraft carriers. I would retain most features of the Phalanx Block 1B Baseline and install the new electric gun, tested by Raytheon, allowing the system to fire at varying rates to conserve ammunition when engaging such targets as small boats.The main change that I would make is to replace both the scanning radar and the tracking radar with the AN/MPQ Sentinel. It would constantly broadcast the location of the towing vessel and draw missiles both toward the raft and… toward the vessel. A peer enemy will have hundreds or thousands Id assume that part of being a CO is knowing your fields of fire for your point defense systems and that there are well-planned doctrinal maneuvers when a threat appears. U.S. Copy in Admiral Turner Papers, NHHC Archives. have completely forgotten. Try these fictional posts: Here are some posts that ComNavOps considers to be the best in terms of information presented, originality, and relevance. Eight to sixteen ESSM in the Mark 29 GMLS Mod. By the engagement’s end, an estimated 3,665 Japanese sailors had lost their lives (including roughly 2,500 on board Yamato) compared to only 12 U.S. "According to their site, the fast forty can kill supersonic missiles up to 3000 meters"It is important to distinguish between manufacturer's claims, which are largely false, and actual test data which is always unrealistically optimized but more correct than manufacturer's claims.In this case the NavWeaps 'claim' is a manufacturer's claim and, with 99% certainty, is misleading, bordering on false. One of its radar arrays was, apparently, If you need 3 or 4 to guarantee a hit, you're run out pretty quickly in a saturation attack. Covering this area with removable plates would solve this as well as directing radar signals away from the sender with correct geometries.Because it works very well, little hardware has changed since it came out in the 1970's. One of the lessons to come out of Okinawa was that the pickets should be the SMALLEST vessel capable of doing the job due to the high risk and expendability of the mission.The ideal picket would be a SMALL ship with LOTS of medium (ESSM) and short (CIWS and SeaRAM - NOT RAM) range AAW along with a moderate radar fit (TRS-3/4D, for example). I've toyed with this idea and the concept of a Burke with something like 32 VLS (128 ESSM), 4 SeaRAM, 8 CIWS, better stealth, 3x TRS-3D (or equivalent), and extensive armor would make for a formidable AAW ship - a floating AAW battery. Later joined by the Marines, Army forces slogged it out with the Japanese, suffering high casualties against the well-defended Shuri Line. Potter, Nimitz (Annapolis, Md: Naval Institute Press, 1976), Nimitz, 374. I have wondered why the costly mechanics located below the dome were allowed to be exposed to the elements. So 4 SeaRAM, 4 CIWS and 4 quad MK 57 VLS (got to get something out of the research cost of the Zumwalt's) for 64 ESSM's on the smallest hull you can ideally WW2 Destroyer escort size?I would hope modern off the shelf power plants would allow decent speed and size while being smaller than those used in WW2 era DE's to leave enough displacement for all the sensors.Does that sound about right? engagement and fighter direction assistance. "That would be the other end of the spectrum where you defend by building a very capable, very stealthy, very armored ship to stand and fight a swarm of missiles. factor that into our ship designs and cost and we need to accept that naval [14] Carroll Dyer, The Amphibians Came to Conquer: The Story of Admiral Richmond Kelly Turner, Vol. The intercepting aircraft is likely to only get a single shot before the attacking missile is out of range.That was a long-winded explanation of why I see the CAP as having a very difficult and not very successful task. " instantly sunk from a single hit. "We just built a Ford for twice the cost of a Nimitz and the exact same performance (or less!). Our Navy insanely placed 30mm Bushmaster II autocannon systems on the LPD-17s, LCS and now Zumwalts, but they have no anti-air capability! is nearly non-existent. "At 1500T, it's also 2-1/2 times as big as the Visby. Staring them down, as they were staring us down, in the eastern Med in the fall of 1973, and realizing that our two twin 3-inch mounts would not stand up well against the array of guns and missiles that bristled from them, was not a reassuring feeling, trust me. Each radar picket would ideally have had 4–6 DDs and 6 support craft with similar speed and maneuvering capabilities, but the large number of picket ships lost made this impossible. "Spot on. The Navy, in contrast, envisions the unmanned Available on Fold3.com. SHIPS HIT IN OKINAWA BATTLE; 35 Were Sunk by Japanese in 3-Month Action, Costliest Fought by Any Navy 10,000 NAVAL CASUALTIES Figures … unarmored and weakly built ships that make up today’s fleet. The Navy’s vision of small So that makes not only more numerous point defense systems, but armor even more relevant. But I don't think it's a terrible starting point. Battle of Okinawa . We absolutely must come to terms with this We’ve grown up seeing a carrier escorted by Saturation – The Kamikaze I like redundancy in everything.“We need to greatly increase the number of defensive weapons installed on our ships.”I would think the standard should be 2 SeaRAM, fore and aft, and 4 Phalanx, 2 port and 2 starboard—more for larger ships, maybe down to 2 and 2 for corvette-sized (and I would build some corvettes and even smaller missile patrol boats).“We must heavily arm our ships–far beyond anything imagined by today’s designers.”This always concerned me about the Russian ships. Today, with high subsonic or supersonic missiles, the engagement time for the CAP would be very short, meaning that the effectiveness of the CAP would be limited and they could not be expected to significantly attrite the attacking missiles. "What's more useful than protecting a carrier group, surface group, or amphib group?! increase the number of sensors (redundancy) and types of sensors on our ships. this ship had been in only one action before, namely the approach to the beaches during the invasion of okinawa. (j.g.) modern ships. [27] Spruance to Moore, 13 May 1945. One carrier isn't going to work. The three-month battle for Okinawa in spring 1945 was an epic struggle. Future naval warfare will, without a doubt, feature massive, As you say, it would make a good starting point for a USN design. When these doors are open, the vessel would light up like a spotlight to all radar generating platforms and could appear to be a destroyer or even a carrier if the ORCR units were designed correctly (the sizing would determine the return).https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corner_reflector https://www.duckworksmagazine.com/07/howto/radar/index.htmIn a mass attack, when the missiles were closing in, the doors could be released, eliminating this radar return. Collection of Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz. [7] COMPHIBPAC, “Suicide Plane Attacks,” 7 July 1945, 9. [10] USS Laffey, “Report of operations in support of the invasion of the Okinawa Gunto, Ryukyu Islands, 3/25/45-4/22/45, including enemy bombing & suicide plane attack on 4/16/45 & AA actions,” 42A. He discusses five primary factors: (1) nature of the kamikaze attacks, (2) improper use of support gunboats, (3) assignment of ships ill-suited for task, (4) failure to establish land-based radar at the earliest possible times, and (5) crew fatigue. Additionally, the composition and tactics of the radar pickets were adjusted to work more efficiently. www.navweapons.com has good info on all the oto melara 40mm mounts. and Korea where munition expenditures far exceeded predictions. The criticism was uncharacteristic of Spruance and more indicative of the strain put on him from the prolonged kamikaze exposure and loss of his Sailors. The Okinawa pickets were located 20-80 miles (mostly 50-80 miles) from Forget about future growth, these would have 25yr lifespan, designed to be replaced with then-current and proven tech in 20 yrs!! The decoy itself is made of a highly radar-reflective material that confuses and distracts incoming anti-ship missiles. provide mutual gun support. Manned by battle stations crewmen.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAU-19 Or get serious with a NAVROC system that is sure to work;https://www.g2mil.com/NAVROC.htm. Look at the number of ships involved in the Okinawa operation. If so, I'd go for many more defensive weapons, as you suggested.Good comment! Also CODLAG or IEP for quiet running in ASW mode, and the smallest hull you could cram all that into. "Visby discussion aside, your main point is spot on. Sources differ regarding the number of ships sunk by kamikaze aircraft during World War II. The ship was the second U.S. Navy ship named after the swallow. faster the attacker, the farther out the picket has to be located in order to of a ship that was able to keep firing despite taking half a dozen or so It may have P-8s available. Navy. Placement from in to out would be cruisers, AAW destroyers, GP escorts, with ASW frigates in outer ring. It would certainly cost less than the potentially hundreds of missiles fired against them. those of us who have grown up looking at Navy PR photos of ships sailing side "If we can't build a Visby for a lot less that $1B, or even half that, then we have serious procurement problems. "The design requirements change if the picket vessel is protecting a stationary target (Guam, etc) versus movable target (naval vessels). For a 4-carrier CTF with a battleship group, that would mean notionally 30 escorts, which could be supplemented with corvettes.“As with the LCS, we’re committed to buying a fleet of worthless vessels. "Spot on!Excellent comment! Start with a Visby, add 30% for USN general principles, then adopt the rule that to add anything you have to take something away. Any analysis is the current 30mm guns with no radar ca n't is AAW and you 've given it SAMs... And where the missiles will impact was wondering what your vessel would function with your layout ``! 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Entire Navy. `` yes mode, and most expensive frigates in outer.!